Jim, when did you first hear The Beatles music?

I was eleven years old, in Grade 5. Everyone at school was talking about this group called The Beatles who were going to be on the Ed Sullivan Show on Sunday night. I didn't know who The Beatles were ... no-one seemed to know much about them ... but there was definitely a buzz. I remember sitting in front of the TV as Ed Sullivan introduced them, and I remember the very first look at them, the very first chord they played, it was just astounding! It knocked me flat on my back.

Was it the music, or was it the way they looked?

The whole package. It's like they were from another planet. They looked different, they sounded different. We'd never seen or heard anything like it.

Do you think you made a decision to pursue a life in music after watching that show?

You know, I'll be 50 years old next May [2002] and I still look back on that moment as a life-altering experience. It wasn't very long after that I gravitated towards music. It replaced my interest in baseball, hockey and comic books. By the time I was thirteen I had a drum kit and was playing in a band.

Drums was your instrument?

Well, I'd been forced into piano lessons when I was seven, but drums was the instrument I was really attracted to. I played drums in bands all through my teens, at school dances, or sock-hops, or whatever, and later I played weddings and night clubs.

"Q" Magazine recently said that Ringo "invented drummers." What did you think of Ringo as a drummer?

Amazing! Absolutely amazing! Ringo is one of the best drummers ever. You can ask Phil Collins, Stewart Copeland, ask any great drummer what they think about Ringo, and they'll say he was the best. He was solid, his time was perfect, he was innovative. I think one of the real tragedies is that Ringo has been given this bad rap as drummer. It's just ignorant misinformation. The man was astounding.

How did you meet Bryan Adams?

I'd just quit a band [Prism] because I didn't enjoy touring, and for about a year I wasn't involved much in writing or recording, mostly just doing session work, playing on McDonald's commercials, and so on. And then, in January 1978, I was at a music store buying guitar strings or something, and Bryan was there, too. The girl I was with knew him and she introduced us. Bryan had just quit his band, Sweeney Todd. He was living with his mom, and wasn't doing much. So we had a quick conversation and decided we'd get together and try writing some songs.

Wow, chance encounter.

Yeah, it was. And so a week later we got together and wrote a song the first day, and never stopped for 10 or 11 years.

Is it true you had to lend Bryan bus fare to get to your house that first day?

Almost true. When Bryan and I first met, he was flat broke. We got together almost every day to write. Sometimes he'd borrow his girlfriend's car, but usually he'd take the bus to my place. On more than one occasion I had to give him a quarter to get home.

What was the first big song for you and Bryan?

"Cuts Like A Knife" was the breakthrough single. Things really took off from that point.

Why did a hugely successful songwriting partnership like Adams/Vallance eventually split up?

With Adams and I, it was "familiarity breeds contempt." We spent an enormous amount of time together over an eleven year period, sometimes twelve hours a day, just the two of us in a room writing songs. It was stupid really, because eventually we just burned out. Bryan's a total workaholic who doesn't know when to give it a rest. I'm the one who pulled the plug.

What was the first Beatles record you bought?

A day or two after the Sullivan show, I got my mom to take me downtown on the bus, and I bought "She Loves You" for 50 cents. That was the first Beatle record I bought. In fact, it was the first record I ever bought. I still have it.

What was the first piece of memorabilia you ever bought?

I bought a Beatle wig in '64, which is long gone. I also had quite a collection of Beatle bubblegum cards. But it wasn't until I was an adult that I started collecting seriously. The first item was a signed Sgt. Pepper album. About a year after John was killed, Beatlefan Magazine offered 20 signed Pepper albums for $1,000 each. Singer Harry Nilsson, who was a close friend of John's, got the three remaining Beatles to autograph the albums, and the proceeds went to the Coalition To Ban Handguns. Somehow I managed to get my letter in ahead of the pack, and I got one of the 20 albums.

When you, as a songwriter, look at The Beatles as songwriters, what in your opinion made them so special?

For the most part, the melodies were brilliant, and the lyrics were so simple but so effective. You know, I'm still trying to analyse it. One little revelation I came across is that most Beatle songs don't have choruses. A lot of pop songwriting over the last twenty years, if you look at Bon Jovi, or Van Halen, the song always has an identifiable chorus, it jumps out and that's the payoff. But if you analyse The Beatles' songs, Hey Jude for example, the title of the song appears right off the top, but it really doesn't come back more than one other time. The songs don't follow any traditional formula.

Is there one song that you and Bryan wrote that you felt came close to what a Beatle standard would be?

Never.

No?

Never.

Which of their songs do you marvel at for the sheer songwriting craft?

I guess Strawberry Fields would be one, because it's just so "off-the-wall". It's so unstructured and unprecedented in it's melody, and how it was strung together from two separate takes. I still marvel at that. I never get tired of it, ever.

How do you work - do you come up with lyrics before melody?

Most writers I've worked with, whether it's Adams or Alice Cooper or Ozzy Osbourne, all agree that melody comes much easier than lyrics. In fact, for me, writing lyrics is purgatory.

You mentioned in an earlier conversation that, in your experience, the subject of The Beatles always comes up as the first or second thing that a new songwriting team talks about.

Absolutely. For example, when I first wrote with Steven Tyler, I don't think it was more than 10 minutes after I met him that we started talking about The Beatles. Same with Ozzy, who is one of the biggest Beatles fans

Ozzy has said "With The Beatles" changed his life.

Ozzy loves The Beatles. Again, there's that life-altering thing where Ozzy would probably be working in a factory or maybe even be in jail if it wasn't for The Beatles. I got to write with Roger McGuinn a couple of years ago, and the time we spent getting acquainted, prior to writing, we talked about The Beatles. Actually, Roger talked and I listened. The Byrds spent a lot of time with the Beatles when they were in California, and Roger has the most amazing stories. Again, that was our common point of reference.

The Byrds were The Beatles favourite American group.

Right. Alice Cooper is another major Beatle fan, and someone who spent quite a bit of time with John during his "Lost Weekend" phase. Alice has some wonderful stories too.

It's always kind of surprising to hear that big rock stars are still huge fans of The Beatles, because you'd think they might become jaded about stardom.

Even big stars are just basically fans when you get right down to it. They go totally ga-ga when given the opportunity to meet a Beatle.

On that subject, you've met Ringo a few times, correct?

I've actually met him three times. The first time was in 1979, when I was producing BTO at Mushroom Studios in Vancouver. The studio manager came in one day and said, "I've got a favour to ask you. I need some of your studio time. Can you take a couple of days off?" And we asked, "What's it for?" And he said that Ringo and Harry Nilsson were flying up from Los Angeles and needed two days to do some recording. And I said, "Absolutely! On one condition - that I get to meet Ringo." I think they were coming up for tax reasons, Ringo couldn't record in the states at that time, and Vancouver was the closest [non-American] city.

On the appointed day, they said I could come by at such and such a time, and Ringo had agreed to say hello. So I drove up to the studio, and there was a limousine parked out front, and I knew it was Ringo's, and my heart started to beat a little faster. It was (laughs) really thrilling and exciting and scary.

So I was taken into the control room, and there he was. It was Ringo! So we chatted a bit, and I asked them what they were recording, and Ringo said they were doing a Christmas single, but they were stuck for a 'B' side. And I said, "Whoa, I'll write you one!"

And Ringo said, "Oh, alright, have a go." So I went home, and I literally stayed up all night, and wrote and demo'd a song called "Reggae Christmas." The next morning I went back to the studio and said, "I've got a song for you!" And Ringo said, "You're joking!" So they put it in the cassette machine and played it over the monitors, and they said, "This is really quite good, leave it with us."

Anyway, to make a long story short, they didn't record my song, but they wrote their own song called "Ringo Reggae"...

Ouch.

...and I felt a little bit betrayed, you know, but I certainly wasn't going to make an issue of it. I think they were also quite "out-of-it." It seemed to me there was a fair amount of cognac and maybe something else going on.

At one point they were doing a photo shoot for the cover art, and Ringo was dressed up in a Santa outfit. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I asked if I could take a photo, and Ringo said, "No, you're not going to steal that idea from us, too!"  You know, I think in their stupor, they thought I'd stolen their reggae idea instead of the other way around. This was a period in Ringo's life when he admits to having had a problem with drugs and alcohol.

So it really was a disappointing experience, because you wait your entire life to meet a Beatle...

And then he yells at you in a Santa suit.

Yeah. Fast forward almost 20 years, and Ringo was in Vancouver rehearsing for his 1997 All-Star tour. Bryan Adams, who knows Ringo a bit, took me and my son 'round to say "hi". It was an entirely different experience. Ringo was great with my son - they really seemed to hit it off. As a toddler, my son watched videos of "A Hard Days Night" and "Help" as often as "Pinocchio" and "Little Mermaid," so he was very aware of the Beatles.

I was just standing there with a big grin on my face, watching my seven-year-old deep in conversation with one of my idols. I could hardly believe it.

Then I heard my son ask "Where's Paul?" and Ringo said, "I think he's in London." Then it was "Where's George?" and Ringo said, "Oh, he's in Los Angeles." I suddenly realized where all of this was heading, and I just kind of froze.

Then my son asked, "Where's John?" Ringo paused for a second, and before he could answer my son said, in a quiet little voice: "He's dead, isn't he?"

Everyone stopped breathing. I was hoping a trap door would open under my feet and rescue me from that moment - but Ringo was very cool about it. He said "Ya, John's underground ... or maybe he's up in the sky," and he pointed at the ceiling. Someone changed the subject and the vibe lightened up again, but it was one of those moments, you know. Children can be so brutally honest sometimes.

Wonderful story.

I met him on a third occasion last summer. Mark Hudson, who you know...

Terrific guy.

... was producing Ringo's "Vertical Man" album, and Mark and I also happened to be writing songs for another project at the same time. One day, Ringo dropped by Mark's studio to pick something up, and so I got to meet him briefly again, along with his wife Barbara. And he was very pleasant.

You also have some Yellow Submarine pieces in your collection?

I've been collecting animation cels, mostly Disney stuff, for quite a few years, but I also have two [Yellow Sub] cels. One is a Blue Meanie, and the other is Ringo, Paul and John, with the three figures together on one cel.

The cels with any of The Beatles in them are the most valuable. At the last Beatlefest, we saw a reputable dealer selling pencil sketches from Yellow Submarine with animator's notations on them. A 4-inch square Jeremy the Boob drawing was about $200. What's the most prized piece in your collection?

I have John's work permit from 1960, which he needed to work at the Indra club in Hamburg.

Wow.

The Beatles worked in Germany on and off through '60, '61 and '62, so there were a number of permits and renewals. There are nine pages, double-sided, eight of them signed by John. On one of the pages it asks for his name and birthdate, and the maiden name of his mother. He wrote "Julia Stanley, born 1922," and when it asks for her place of residence he wrote "Dead."

John would be just shy of twenty then.

Yes. And there's a lovely passport photo stapled to one of the pages. It looks like it was taken in one of those do-it-yourself booths! In the book "A Day In The Life" [by Tom Schultheiss] and also in Mark Lewisohn's "Complete Beatle Chronicles" it says John was issued a passport and visa on August 16, 1960, the same day they left for Germany, but they didn't get their work permits until they were already in Hamburg. The earliest date stamped in the papers I have is August 19, 1960.

Does it mention the other Beatles at all?

Yeah, it does. There's a typed letter, in German, with Bruno Koschmider's name across the top, saying that the following individuals will be coming to work in Hamburg: James Paul McCartney, John Winston Lennon, Randolph Peter Best, George Harrison and Stuart Fergusson Victor Sutcliffe. And it lists their dates of birth and their Liverpool addresses.

What an amazing one-of-a-kind piece.

It really is, it's outstanding.

There's another interesting thing about it. The Beatles were, as you know, deported from Germany when it was found out that George was underage. And there's a handwritten note. John, I guess, wanted to stay in Germany a bit longer, and in John's handwriting, it says, "I've been informed that I can no longer work here. I'm staying here a few days as a tourist, and will leave before or on the 10th of December, 1960. Signed J.W. Lennon.".

And what's interesting, if you look closely, you can see that John's note has been pasted onto the page. When you hold it up to the light, underneath, there's a similar note signed by Stuart Sutcliffe. So it seems to me that Stuart and John had gone into the office at the same time to ask for an extension on their visas, and by mistake, I think, Stuart must have written on John's visa, and John on Stuart's, so the clerk just cut it out and pasted it over the top.

So you can see the impression?

No, Stuart's writing is actually still there, under John's.

Incredible. You also have a track sheet from Apple Studios on Saville Row.

Paul Northfield, an English engineer who's lived in Montreal for many years, gave that to me as a gift. He did a session at Apple one time.

Your collection also includes an Astrid photo?

It's a photo of the young Beatles with Pete Best and Stuart Sutcliffe, and it looks like they're sitting on a flatbed train.

"Hugo Hass" it's called.

	Lennon sketch (click to view larger)

That's the one, that's what it says on the side of the train. And Astrid sent a signed certificate with it.

Do you follow the Christie's and Sotheby's auctions?

I subscribe to both catalogues, but the only auction item I've purchased is one of John's cartoons.

Is that the drawing that appears in the book, "Rock and Pop Memorabilia" by Stephen Maycock?

Yes. It's a small piece, an ink drawing on gray paper. Apparently, during Apple business meetings, John would get quite bored and he would doodle, and draw cartoon characters. This one came from Cynthia Lennon's collection. She sold quite a few things through Christie's a few years ago.

What's your favourite Beatle album?

Boy, that's a tough one . . . I think it's a toss-up between Sgt. Pepper and Revolver.

It's amazing to think that was only a two year period - Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt. Pepper. Do you ever think about it in that context as a songwriter, the depth and the quantity of music they created in that period?

Absolutely. What really blows me away is that "She Loves You" was recorded in July 1963 and "Tomorrow Never Knows" was recorded in April 1966. That evolution from simple pop to world-altering music in less than three years is something I'll never, ever, be able to fully comprehend.

What instrument do you compose on?

I play either keyboard or guitar when I write. I usually find if I'm playing keyboard, it's ends up being a ballad. And if I'm playing guitar, it ends up being a rocker.

Is there one song you wrote that you initially thought was a weak song, but for whatever reason took off and became a hit?

"Summer of '69," which Adams and I wrote, if you know that one.

Of course.

We had that title kicking around for a while, and we actually wrote a completely different song called "Summer of '69," which wasn't very good so we scrapped it. But we liked the title, so we came back to it a few months later. We re-wrote it and did a demo, but it didn't quite hold together, so we did another recording, tried a different approach, and that didn't work either.

So Bryan took it into the studio and recorded it with his band a third time, and it still didn't sound right. We came very, very close to leaving it off the [Reckless] album, but at some point it made the "final cut". And to be honest, all these years later, when I hear it on the radio, I can't remember what I didn't like about it.

As a songwriter, surely one of the most desirable pieces to add to your collection would have to be handwritten Beatle lyrics.

That would be something I would die to have. I've seen them at auctions, but of all the items that come up, lyrics are the most expensive. Almost unattainable.

A hundred years from now, those handwritten lyrics will still be studied as artifacts of the 20th century.

I agree. Whenever I'm in London I go to the British Museum. In the "document" section they have handwritten Beatle lyrics on display.

Right next to the Magna Carta.

It's true. "Ticket to Ride," right next to the Magna Carta.